IRC log of ag on 2020-01-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:43:17 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ag
15:43:17 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/01/07-ag-irc
15:43:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:43:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ag
15:43:21 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:43:21 [trackbot]
Date: 07 January 2020
15:43:57 [alastairc]
agenda?
15:44:18 [alastairc]
agenda+ Reminder to rejoin group
15:44:27 [alastairc]
agenda+ Plan for virtual face to face, pre wide-review of WCAG 2.2.
15:44:35 [alastairc]
agenda+ Advance notice that the draft for 2.2 coming up
15:44:47 [alastairc]
agenda+ WCAG 2.2 Dragging https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-dragging/
15:44:57 [alastairc]
agenda+ WCAG 2.2 Visual indicators https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Visual_indicators/
15:45:21 [alastairc]
agenda+ WCAG 2.2 Icon description re-review https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/icon-desc-acceptance/results
15:49:48 [JakeAbma]
JakeAbma has joined #ag
15:55:31 [Fazio]
Fazio has joined #ag
15:57:05 [AWK]
Zakim, who is on the call?
15:57:05 [Zakim]
Present: (no one)
15:57:07 [AWK]
+AWK
15:57:26 [Nicaise]
Nicaise has joined #ag
15:57:41 [alastairc]
present:+
15:57:44 [alastairc]
present+
15:58:11 [JakeAbma]
present+ JakeAbma
15:59:02 [Jennie]
Jennie has joined #ag
15:59:13 [stevelee]
stevelee has joined #ag
15:59:37 [Rachael]
Rachael has joined #ag
15:59:42 [Detlev]
Detlev has joined #ag
16:00:10 [Detlev]
Detlev has joined #ag
16:00:10 [Rachael]
Rachael has joined #ag
16:00:10 [Jennie]
Jennie has joined #ag
16:00:10 [Nicaise]
Nicaise has joined #ag
16:00:10 [Fazio]
Fazio has joined #ag
16:00:10 [JakeAbma]
JakeAbma has joined #ag
16:00:10 [laura]
laura has joined #ag
16:00:10 [kirkwood]
kirkwood has joined #ag
16:00:10 [achraf]
achraf has joined #ag
16:00:10 [alastairc]
alastairc has joined #ag
16:00:41 [Fazio]
present+
16:00:50 [Rachael]
present+
16:00:55 [stevelee]
present+
16:01:05 [Jennie]
present+
16:01:11 [alastairc]
scribe: Jennie
16:01:13 [Detlev]
present+
16:01:20 [alastairc]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
16:01:50 [Jennie]
Alastair: Please sign up to scribe.
16:02:07 [Chuck]
Chuck has joined #ag
16:02:55 [Chuck]
present+
16:03:24 [bruce_bailey]
bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:03:25 [alastairc]
zakim, take up item
16:03:25 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up item', alastairc
16:03:34 [alastairc]
zakim, take up next item
16:03:34 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Reminder to rejoin group" taken up [from alastairc]
16:03:40 [JustineP]
JustineP has joined #ag
16:03:51 [bruce_bailey]
present+
16:03:53 [Jennie]
Alastair: Because we have rechartered, everyone needs to rejoin the working group.
16:03:56 [JustineP]
present+
16:04:13 [Jennie]
...If you are an invited expert, you should have received an email with a link to make the legal agreements.
16:04:17 [Rachael]
q+
16:04:22 [MichaelC]
present+
16:04:38 [Jennie]
...If you are part of a membership organization, I believe you join after the main contact.
16:04:47 [MarcJohlic]
MarcJohlic has joined #ag
16:04:52 [Jennie]
Rachael: Can you send a list of who has rejoined?
16:05:01 [Jennie]
Michael: You have rejoined.
16:05:08 [Jennie]
...I will ping people as the date approaches.
16:05:16 [JF]
JF has joined #ag
16:05:26 [JF]
agenda?
16:05:31 [JF]
Present+
16:05:37 [Jennie]
Michael: The deadline is in a few weeks.
16:05:54 [Jennie]
...February 3rd - 3 more weeks.
16:06:00 [david-macdonald]
david-macdonald has joined #ag
16:06:07 [Jennie]
Alastair: Fill out the form, and you will be all set.
16:06:14 [alastairc]
ack ra
16:06:18 [Jennie]
...any other questions?
16:06:19 [Brooks]
Brooks has joined #ag
16:06:19 [alastairc]
zakim, take up next item
16:06:20 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Plan for virtual face to face, pre wide-review of WCAG 2.2." taken up [from alastairc]
16:06:28 [Brooks]
present+ Brooks
16:06:40 [Jennie]
Alastair: There will not be a CSUN meeting, but there will be a Silver Task Force meeting.
16:06:53 [Jennie]
...If we had both Silver and AG there would be a lot to do.
16:07:11 [Jennie]
...There was a discussion before Christmas about a separate face to face, but this is tricky with travel budgets.
16:07:19 [Jennie]
...We would like to have a virtual face to face.
16:07:28 [Jennie]
...A longer meeting with a particular focus.
16:07:31 [david-macdonald]
+1+1+1
16:07:39 [Jennie]
...Towards the end of March.
16:07:51 [Jennie]
...Before WCAG 2.2 went to wide review draft, but after CSUN.
16:08:15 [JF]
Q+ to ask about the agenda for that longer meeting
16:08:16 [AWK]
Week of 3/17 or 3/24
16:08:23 [alastairc]
ack jf
16:08:23 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to ask about the agenda for that longer meeting
16:08:27 [AWK]
(not the whole week)
16:08:34 [kirkwood]
present+
16:08:43 [Jennie]
John F: If we meet at the end of March before a wider review draft, is there an envisioned agenda?
16:08:57 [Jennie]
Alastair: I think it will be an issue whack a mole
16:09:07 [Jennie]
...For SC not quite approved to go into wide review draft
16:09:11 [MichaelC]
q+
16:09:12 [Jennie]
...To get agreement on those
16:09:23 [Jennie]
...dealing with issues on a per SC basis
16:09:34 [Jennie]
...Understanding documents, technique documents...
16:09:42 [Jennie]
...there are 5 or 6 HTML files for one
16:09:50 [Jennie]
...each will have a substantial set of documents
16:09:51 [alastairc]
ack mi
16:10:10 [alastairc]
Rough timelines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U9dm8rFsyPLu_LeSmdJRKdNdXmQ2nlUFcC7clUFglzw/edit#gid=0
16:10:10 [Jennie]
Michael: And we moved the wide review date later by a few weeks when we decided a virtual face to face will be happening
16:10:32 [Jennie]
Alastair: Pending an exact date, any questions or comments?
16:10:51 [Jennie]
...this would span a couple of time zones as well. 4-6 hours on one day, 4-6 hours on another day that week.
16:11:05 [JakeAbma]
+1+1
16:11:06 [Jennie]
...Who would be likely to attend at least one meeting that week.
16:11:08 [Detlev]
+1
16:11:10 [AWK]
+!
16:11:11 [Chuck]
+1
16:11:12 [JustineP]
+1
16:11:13 [AWK]
+1
16:11:19 [kirkwood]
+1
16:11:20 [MarcJohlic]
+1
16:11:21 [Jennie]
...this would be the week of the 24th of March
16:11:27 [Rachael]
+1
16:11:32 [jon_avila]
jon_avila has joined #ag
16:11:37 [Jennie]
+1+1
16:11:45 [alastairc]
+1
16:11:52 [david-macdonald]
+_1
16:11:52 [bruce_bailey]
+1
16:11:53 [Brooks]
+1
16:11:55 [stevelee]
+1
16:11:56 [Fazio]
+1
16:11:59 [Jennie]
Alastair: ok we have quite a few people that are willing and able to participate.
16:12:04 [david-macdonald]
+1
16:12:09 [jon_avila]
present+jon_avila
16:12:11 [Jennie]
Bruce: is that date pretty well settled?
16:12:18 [jon_avila]
zakim, draft minutes
16:12:18 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'draft minutes', jon_avila
16:12:21 [Jennie]
Alastair: We have not yet settled on a specific week or days
16:12:32 [jon_avila]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:12:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/07-ag-minutes.html jon_avila
16:12:33 [Jennie]
Bruce: Which dates should we try to block out?
16:12:41 [david-macdonald]
I'm teaching March 30-31 everything else good for me.
16:12:44 [Jennie]
Alastair: I'm guessing the week of the 24th would be Tuesday and Wednesday
16:12:58 [Caryn]
Caryn has joined #ag
16:13:03 [Jennie]
...If we assume the 24th and 25th
16:13:10 [david-macdonald]
24-25 good
16:13:39 [alastairc]
q?
16:13:43 [alastairc]
zakim, take up next item
16:13:43 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Advance notice that the draft for 2.2 coming up" taken up [from alastairc]
16:14:03 [Jennie]
Alastair: Now we need a working draft ASAP
16:14:19 [Jennie]
...hoping this will be next week for Focus Visible Enhanced.
16:14:27 [Jennie]
...that will be the main change.
16:14:51 [Jennie]
...when will we be able to publish this as an editor's draft?
16:15:07 [Jennie]
Michael: I believe it is being automatically updated now. I did create one manually.
16:15:17 [Jennie]
...if it is not happening automatically I can get that going today.
16:15:23 [Jennie]
Alastair: The new SC has not been merged yet.
16:15:34 [Jennie]
Michael: If there is a merging issue - usually I let you do the merging
16:15:41 [Jennie]
...oh that one.
16:15:57 [Jennie]
...I will try to work on this during the call today.
16:16:18 [Jennie]
Alastair: That draft should be ready, and then a CFC to get confirmation and publish that.
16:16:28 [alastairc]
zakim, take up next item
16:16:28 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "WCAG 2.2 Dragging https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-dragging/" taken up [from alastairc]
16:16:50 [alastairc]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-dragging/results
16:16:52 [Jennie]
Alastair: This is a new success criteria that Detlev has been working on.
16:17:19 [Jennie]
...quite a few saying the shall items are met.
16:17:29 [Jennie]
...Jake has text additions on the success criteria
16:17:38 [Jennie]
...did you have a chance to look at those Detlev?
16:17:52 [Jennie]
Detlev: Yes, and so far I agree with them, but have not reviewed them all. I think it looks good.
16:18:09 [Jennie]
Alastair: Chris Meeking had a comment around techniques to accomplish this in mobile.
16:18:14 [Jennie]
...I don't know the answer to this.
16:18:31 [Jennie]
...And he had a wording concern - pointer being confused with mouse.
16:19:00 [Jennie]
...I had the largest comment: I think we need to be able to point to some implementations, for both pass and fail.
16:19:10 [Jennie]
...They may exist, but it would be helpful to have links.
16:19:13 [bruce_bailey]
Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LaVX-RTaLQL0tN4G3NhOTlmj16swt0VzC7ssaAjqIwg
16:19:20 [Jennie]
...I also had a comment about the level it is set at.
16:19:44 [Jennie]
...Pointer gestures is level A which is overlapping or has a narrower scope. This one is also proposed at A but it has a wider scope.
16:19:53 [Jennie]
...In terms of the # of interactions it would cover.
16:19:57 [Detlev]
q+
16:20:03 [Jennie]
...Assuming we agree it is good to do, it should be AA
16:20:13 [alastairc]
ack de
16:20:18 [Jennie]
Detlev: I don't know why I put it on A, AA is better given the other SC.
16:20:35 [Jennie]
Alastair: I was wondering how much it overlaps with keyboard accessibility.
16:20:43 [AWK]
q+
16:20:49 [Jennie]
...If you have a drag and drop that is keyboard accessible, there would be a mechanism to do that.
16:21:04 [Detlev]
q+
16:21:07 [david-macdonald]
q+
16:21:07 [Jennie]
...Is it making sure that single tap pointer input...If that is the case we could be clearer in the understanding document.
16:21:10 [alastairc]
ack aw
16:21:17 [alastairc]
ack de
16:21:20 [alastairc]
q+ AWK
16:21:39 [Jennie]
Detlev: I don't have the example ready, but will find it. There was 1 implementation providing a single pointer operable solution to sorting lists
16:21:53 [Jennie]
...you have little things sticking out at the side which allow you to move it up and down.
16:22:00 [Jennie]
...This is pointer and keyboard operable.
16:22:09 [bruce_bailey]
q+ to say that we should be explicit that keyboard alternative is NOT sufficient
16:22:19 [Jennie]
...This will be one implementation which would probably meet the SC for vertical dragging.
16:22:30 [Jennie]
...It might be more difficult for resorting laterally as well as up and down.
16:22:49 [Jennie]
...I agree with Alastair that there should be more, and they are difficult to find.
16:23:09 [Jennie]
...If anyone has one which would fit, I would be delighted to get that information.
16:23:24 [Jennie]
Alastair: Might be worth an email out to the list to gather general dragging implementations.
16:23:26 [alastairc]
ack aw
16:23:40 [Jennie]
Andrew: I was going to respond to the comment about techniques for accomplishing this in mobile.
16:24:05 [Jennie]
...I'm not sure if this is more difficult on mobile or desktop.
16:24:24 [Jennie]
...Is it that when controls are implemented, there is the ability for dragging.
16:24:51 [Jennie]
...I'm not particularly worried about using the term pointer but think we can clarify this. And there are W3C specs that discuss this.
16:24:52 [alastairc]
ack da
16:25:11 [Jennie]
David M: I am wondering about the keyboard. There is a lot of overlap with keyboard right now.
16:25:28 [Jennie]
...Are we trying to get away from an Etch a Sketch type use?
16:25:29 [Detlev]
q+
16:25:32 [Jennie]
...Then there is the mobile part
16:25:38 [Jennie]
...We operate at an HTTP level
16:25:52 [Jennie]
...I'm a little confused about the overhang with keyboard.
16:25:58 [jon_avila]
We want this to work on a mobile site without requiring a keyboard.
16:26:17 [Jennie]
Detlev: I think this is similar to 2.5.1 where we really said it is not about keyboard operability - this is separate issue.
16:26:25 [AWK]
I read this as written that there is zero overlap with keyboard now
16:26:26 [Jennie]
...I would try to separate this
16:26:40 [Jennie]
...This would not mean an element that would allow you to move things step wise.
16:27:01 [Jennie]
...If there is a documented way of using the keyboard like the arrow up and down to move the elements, would meet keyboard operable in a separate way.
16:27:09 [alastairc]
q+ to ask about previous 'difficult' example
16:27:11 [Jennie]
...You might have a different mechanism for keyboard.
16:27:13 [alastairc]
ack de
16:27:18 [alastairc]
ack br
16:27:18 [Zakim]
bruce_bailey, you wanted to say that we should be explicit that keyboard alternative is NOT sufficient
16:27:28 [laura]
present+ Laura
16:27:28 [Jennie]
Bruce: I think we want to say this for the entire 2.5 guideline:
16:27:38 [Jennie]
...All the criteria in 2.5 have to have a pointer operation.
16:27:47 [Jennie]
...Having the keyboard equivalent doesn't meet the SC
16:27:54 [Jennie]
...or others in the 2.5 series.
16:28:02 [Jennie]
...How does voiceover address dragging?
16:28:17 [Jennie]
Alastair: It is a common component of mobile apps, like sortable lists.
16:28:30 [Jennie]
...I think you select an item, then go next or down, then select again to drop it.
16:28:36 [Jennie]
...that's just from memory though.
16:28:48 [Jennie]
Bruce: Can anyone name a shipping app for iPhone that uses drag?
16:29:00 [Fazio]
sorting apps on home screen. does that count?
16:29:02 [Jennie]
...The keyboard supports it now as an option, but I don't know of a native app.
16:29:10 [jon_avila]
The home screen
16:29:11 [Jennie]
Andrew: go to the display and brightness.
16:29:20 [Jennie]
David M: on Mac OS you can
16:29:23 [jon_avila]
you can drag things on home screen
16:29:29 [Jennie]
Alastair: David F mentions the home screen
16:29:37 [Jennie]
...I'm sure there are things in email as well.
16:29:47 [alastairc]
q?
16:29:51 [jon_avila]
You hold and a menu comes up and you select edit home screen. Then you drag your figure around on the home screen with explore by touch.
16:29:54 [Jennie]
...There are a variety of solutions. You pick the thing you want to drag, then there are items you can select from
16:30:00 [alastairc]
ack al
16:30:00 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to ask about previous 'difficult' example
16:30:08 [Jennie]
David M: On iOS you swipe up to make it go larger after selecting it
16:30:22 [AWK]
David is that with VO on only?
16:30:25 [Jennie]
Alastair: Several different options: incremental, swipe...I haven't found the Etch a Sketch options
16:30:37 [Jennie]
...There are several people saying it doesn't have an overlap with keyboard
16:30:43 [jon_avila]
For sliders there are rotor settings that you can use a adjust command to increment or decrement
16:30:57 [Jennie]
...We found an example of keyboard access form with drag and drop in the past, and we couldn't find a way to solve that problem.
16:31:00 [david-macdonald]
@AWK That's ios, will check now with TalkBack
16:31:04 [Jennie]
...That's why I am asking for examples.
16:31:15 [AWK]
@david - is that with VO on or off?
16:31:28 [Jennie]
...If it is difficult to make it worth both for single pointer and keyboard accessible, then it could be a large stumbling block.
16:31:35 [Jennie]
...Maybe it was from Facebook?
16:32:01 [Jennie]
Detlev: That is the same one I was trying to remember before. You could be right that there was no way to have a pointer operable alternative to dragging
16:32:12 [Jennie]
...The example was reordering items in a vertical stack.
16:32:31 [Jennie]
...The additional arrows appearing would be helpful, but could be messy in a column moving one to the right or left.
16:32:37 [Jennie]
...Where would you point the side ones?
16:32:40 [david-macdonald]
@AWK VO on on ios
16:32:42 [Jennie]
...It may be a bit of a headache
16:32:57 [Jennie]
...We need to not rule out keyboard accessible implementations.
16:33:08 [Jennie]
...I'm not sure where I stand on this. We should definitely get more examples.
16:33:16 [AWK]
@david, I don't think that requiring VO to be used should count
16:33:31 [Jennie]
Alastair: Looking through the comments, apart from feasibility, it looks like most people are onboard with how it is worded.
16:33:41 [Jennie]
...especially if it follows the pointer gestures structure.
16:33:44 [AWK]
@david, plus that requires a swipe, not a single tap
16:33:55 [Jennie]
...Is anyone worried about the actual SC text assuming we get good solutions?
16:34:12 [david-macdonald]
On Talkback put focus on slider and use Volume control hardware buttons on side of phone
16:34:12 [Jennie]
Andrew: It hasn't changed since we got the survey?
16:34:20 [alastairc]
All functionality that uses a dragging motion for operation can be operated by a single pointer without dragging, unless dragging is essential.
16:34:21 [bruce_bailey]
@AWK but could not the VO method still potentially be used?
16:34:29 [Jennie]
Alastair: Jake has suggested it follow the Pointer Gestures wording more closely, but it says the same thing
16:34:37 [Jennie]
Andrew: Is a swipe dragging?
16:34:44 [Detlev]
q+
16:34:48 [Jennie]
Alastair: To me that is a subset of dragging
16:34:51 [david-macdonald]
q+
16:34:56 [bruce_bailey]
IMHO swipe is not dragging
16:34:58 [Jennie]
Andrew: So you are not dragging anything, so people would say that is not dragging
16:35:07 [Jennie]
...the Slide situation is what prompted some of this.
16:35:15 [david-macdonald]
to say swipe is not dragging...
16:35:24 [Jennie]
...You tap on the slider, then move your finger left or right, and that passes 2.5.1 but not this
16:35:36 [Jennie]
...but if you tap on it, then swipe without holding on to it, that would pass this
16:35:56 [Jennie]
...We want to say you would tap the thumb, then swipe, making it work with single taps.
16:35:59 [jon_avila]
I thought we determined dragging was not a path but that a swipe was a path.
16:36:12 [Jennie]
Alastair: Using a dragging motion, and a drag operation - those are 2 distincts things
16:36:17 [alastairc]
ack de
16:36:20 [bruce_bailey]
iOS has some settings so that two (and three) finger gestures are not needed
16:36:34 [Jennie]
Detlev: I'm a bit nervous about it for exactly what Andrew mentioned. When is a drag a drag
16:36:46 [Jennie]
...and what Alastair came up with defining the scope of pointer gestures.
16:36:54 [bruce_bailey]
those iOS settings might help with dragging (without using VO)
16:37:01 [Jennie]
...A superset by including all dragging - we made need changes to 2.5.1
16:37:18 [Jennie]
...Then 2.5.1 could be more focused on swipes which are more gestural type of activities.
16:37:22 [Jennie]
...The borderline is difficult.
16:37:26 [bruce_bailey]
q+
16:37:27 [david-macdonald]
present+
16:37:38 [AWK]
"For all functionality that uses a dragging motion for operation, an alternative mode of activation exists that can be operated using individual pointer clicks or taps, unless dragging is essential."
16:37:39 [Jennie]
Alastair: one of the interations on pointer gestures was diagrams
16:37:49 [Jennie]
...In my mind that is a superset.
16:38:10 [Jennie]
Detlev: When you have to meet AA you would say the slider would not require you to have an initial direction, but would follow you anywhere
16:38:17 [bruce_bailey]
q+ to ask if this SC is meant to prohibit swipes
16:38:20 [alastairc]
Diagram of 'freeform' dragging is the second picture here: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/pointer-gestures.html
16:38:21 [Jennie]
...would need a single pointer alternative
16:38:32 [alastairc]
ack da
16:38:33 [Jennie]
...We could simplify 2.5.1 at the same time as introducing this one.
16:39:00 [Jennie]
David M: I agree that drag and drop, and even the word drag, we don't want to conflate dragging with swiping
16:39:09 [alastairc]
ack br
16:39:09 [Zakim]
bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask if this SC is meant to prohibit swipes
16:39:11 [Jennie]
...if there is no object to drag, then I think it is not a drag
16:39:16 [stevelee]
+1
16:39:17 [Jennie]
Alastair: Maybe we need a different term for that
16:39:21 [JF]
+1
16:39:27 [Fazio]
I would say dragging requires precision
16:39:32 [Fazio]
swiping doesnt
16:39:50 [Jennie]
Andrew: I have suggested a potential change above which may support this
16:40:07 [Jennie]
John F: I think David F is making a good point - a swipe doesn't require any type of precision.
16:40:16 [Jennie]
...Dragging and dropping assumes a target that is being dropped on
16:40:34 [Jennie]
Alastair: I used to assume the same thing, but some implementations of swipe are actually very precise.
16:40:37 [jon_avila]
Swiping can be hard as well -- I agree with Alastair.
16:40:45 [Jennie]
...E.g. a small one vs a large one
16:40:53 [Jennie]
Detlev: Is that really a drag?
16:41:01 [Jennie]
...It's not just a swipe
16:41:19 [Jennie]
John F: I will use the idea of a slider even though that is not what we are talking about. It has a range.
16:41:23 [Fazio]
I agree with JF
16:41:27 [jon_avila]
you're not dragging anything though
16:41:29 [Jennie]
...As you drag it to the position, close is often not good enough.
16:41:37 [Jennie]
Alastair: There is variability
16:41:38 [AWK]
iOS: "A swipe gesture occurs when the user moves one or more fingers across the screen in a specific horizontal or vertical direction. Use the UISwipeGestureRecognizer class to detect swipe gestures."
16:41:51 [alastairc]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NGxqbwbcaG8dwSs5H2eTRy0gDELTdSuAi1ad0le4fDU/edit?ouid=101029316087123794349&usp=sheets_home&ths=true
16:42:07 [Jennie]
Alastair: If anyone wants to go through a spreadsheet there are examples in this document
16:42:14 [JakeAbma]
q+
16:42:19 [alastairc]
ack ja
16:42:21 [Jennie]
...I still come back to "more examples needed"
16:42:33 [Jennie]
Jake: Your both right!
16:42:45 [Jennie]
...But there is something else implemented: the speed of your swipe
16:43:06 [Jennie]
...If you normally delete a list item by swiping more than 70 or 80%, and you only go 30% with a drag it shows another option beneath it
16:43:28 [Jennie]
...It is not only the drag, the swipe, but it is also the speed with which you do it which makes it more complicated.
16:43:40 [Fazio]
If this isn't already defined can wee define it and resolve this clarification issue
16:43:47 [Jennie]
...You have to go to a certain place to release it - you don't always have to go to a specific place
16:44:11 [Jennie]
Alastair: The point that Detlev is trying to cover is the definitions for the pointer gesture one.
16:44:21 [Jennie]
...You put your finger down, you move it to achieve something, then release
16:44:26 [Jennie]
...I think it is covered.
16:44:44 [Jennie]
...Like some of the multimedia ones where you do some things for level A, but an increased requirement for AA.
16:44:50 [Jennie]
...To cover all dragging type gestures.
16:45:00 [Jennie]
Detlev: Yes, that was the intention.
16:45:16 [Jennie]
Alastair: For this one we don't have to get into the definition for all of them.
16:45:20 [Jennie]
...It will be covered.
16:45:26 [Jennie]
...Has that changed anyone's mind?
16:45:43 [Jennie]
...Or Andrew's version?
16:45:49 [alastairc]
q?
16:46:00 [Jennie]
(Someone): Mike Gower is not on the call and he might have an objection
16:46:24 [Jennie]
Alastair: There were suggestions for the understanding document, but I think it is worth getting a sense of the level of support for this one
16:46:35 [Jennie]
...Given that it is going beyond what we agreed to do
16:46:56 [Jennie]
...I think my preferred direction is to spend a little time gathering examples in terms of solutions to typical dragging uses/scenarios
16:47:03 [Jennie]
...list sort, placing an item in an area...
16:47:10 [Jennie]
...There are a few typical drag scenarios
16:47:31 [Jennie]
...Is it possible to gather examples, put links to them in the document, then give us a more concrete understanding of how it could apply?
16:47:40 [Jennie]
...Detlev will you have time for this in the next few weeks?
16:47:51 [Jennie]
Detlev: I can try, and I can send an email to the list to get examples.
16:48:07 [Jennie]
Alastair: Google maps or other mapping providers might be something to think about.
16:48:15 [Jennie]
...I think that would be a useful next step.
16:48:22 [AWK]
Do we need a definition for "dragging motion"?
16:48:30 [Jennie]
...If you still think it is a good idea, we can look at the understanding document a bit more.
16:48:37 [AWK]
For example, dragging vs panning
16:48:46 [Jennie]
Alastair: In regards to Andrew's question
16:48:59 [Jennie]
Andrew: Google Maps on a desktop - they have the DVD type control so you can change the view
16:49:17 [Jennie]
...on a mobile device, you don't have that, so you use your finger to drag around the map. Others might say panning/changing your view on it.
16:49:29 [Jennie]
...A dragging motion, but I think this is part of the nuance we will need to respond to
16:49:33 [Detlev]
q+
16:49:36 [alastairc]
ack de
16:49:45 [Jennie]
Andrew: And is pinching a form of dragging?
16:49:56 [Jennie]
Detlev: Pinching would fall under 2.5.1 in my opinion.
16:50:04 [bruce_bailey]
Dragging maps is a good bad example!
16:50:05 [Jennie]
...I think it is a definition of what is the object of dragging?
16:50:15 [Jennie]
...We had other examples like the slider where the object is also there.
16:50:26 [Jennie]
...It is several pictures you can pick up and swipe or drag
16:50:45 [Jennie]
...You could argue that panning - the whole map is the element that you are dragging
16:51:05 [Jennie]
...If we see pushback for interface controls for map on mobiles might be an exclusion for panning
16:51:18 [Jennie]
...We could say we are talking about discrete objects across the screen.
16:51:24 [Jennie]
...This could be an option to differentiate both
16:51:24 [david-macdonald]
I would support that distinction
16:51:41 [Jennie]
Andrew: That's a good reminder. Pinching would be under 2.5.1 so scratch that part of the comment
16:51:52 [Jennie]
Alastair: If anyone knows of examples please send them in
16:51:53 [Fazio]
I remember there used to be directional arrows for that on maps
16:52:08 [Jennie]
Alastair: At the bottom in the next steps
16:52:15 [Jennie]
...We have talked through Wilco's comment
16:52:22 [Jennie]
...Just a few wording issues
16:52:28 [Jennie]
...The main thing is examples of implementations.
16:52:44 [alastairc]
zakim, take up next item
16:52:44 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "WCAG 2.2 Visual indicators https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Visual_indicators/" taken up [from alastairc]
16:53:31 [Jennie]
David M: There is currently 2 versions I am looking at
16:53:38 [Jennie]
...The second one is the fall back version
16:53:50 [bruce_bailey]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Visual_indicators/results
16:53:55 [Jennie]
...The 2nd one says don't do the dumb thing
16:54:01 [Jennie]
...There are some weaknesses to the fallback one
16:54:07 [Jennie]
...Might have been Abi
16:54:19 [bruce_bailey]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WhZAbswvPHs7A3stfqM_ATsaBHPeGbHtARcmaKMck1U
16:54:20 [Jennie]
...There were some comments that requires if you go to the passive version of it
16:54:27 [Jennie]
...Plugins don't work on mobile
16:54:33 [Jennie]
...That's the problem with the fallback
16:54:43 [Jennie]
...The active one has weaknesses too
16:55:01 [Jennie]
...The word purpose was added by the COGA team
16:55:32 [Jennie]
...(reads both versions)
16:55:47 [Jennie]
...The reason I had the fallback one was because I had success with the stylus
16:55:57 [Jennie]
...All the links got underlines, but it relies on a plugin
16:56:29 [Jennie]
Alastair: Detlev had comments around the testability aspects
16:56:47 [Jennie]
...(reads from comments)
16:57:04 [Jennie]
...The testability and what constitutes a pass is what I mostly struggled with
16:57:11 [alastairc]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1szUxsXszXx2pRRScIr90as7fDgn7VZdxQsh2v6lZrfg/edit
16:57:12 [Jennie]
...Seeing the examples that Abi James provided
16:57:20 [Jennie]
...They are probably UK based
16:57:36 [Jennie]
...Text, links, some with icons, some without
16:57:46 [Jennie]
...A jumble of things that may or may not be interactive
16:58:05 [Jennie]
...Things that are not user interface components has things that make them look like they are
16:58:26 [Jennie]
David M: The current language wouldn't be a failure for inactive components that look like active components.
16:58:35 [Detlev]
q+
16:58:38 [Jennie]
...You would fail by creating something interactive that doesn't look like it
16:58:52 [Jennie]
Alastair: A star rating with underlined text next to it - would that pass?
16:58:59 [Jennie]
David M: Yes, that would pass.
16:59:07 [Jennie]
...It has an indicator around it that is 3:1
16:59:16 [Jennie]
...The purpose, then, that is a big can of worms
16:59:26 [Jennie]
...Society knows that the checkmark is Nike
16:59:31 [Brooks]
+q
16:59:33 [Jennie]
...they no longer need the word "Nike"
16:59:37 [JF]
Q+ to question the "star rating" example
16:59:43 [Jennie]
...We have a whole bunch of components that do that.
16:59:48 [Jennie]
...The down arrow on a select box
17:00:08 [Rachael]
q+
17:00:12 [Jennie]
...The point of the SC was to make it so that people could see that something was an active interface component
17:00:26 [Jennie]
...I am leaning towards the fallback version because I am finding issues with the active text
17:00:29 [laura]
Jennie are you ready for me to start scribing?
17:00:32 [alastairc]
ack de
17:00:33 [Jennie]
Alastair: Let's focus on the active one
17:00:44 [Jennie]
Go ahead Laura - thanks!
17:00:50 [laura]
Scribe: Laura
17:01:37 [laura]
Detlev: depends on if there is text above.
17:01:53 [laura]
… need an awarenss of context.
17:02:18 [laura]
.. difficult to see that this is going to work with all impementations.
17:02:20 [alastairc]
ack br
17:02:37 [laura]
brooks: posted examples on the ist.
17:03:06 [laura]
… boils down to: does the interface needs addtional instructions?
17:03:40 [laura]
… old fashiond radio butions don’t need it,
17:03:59 [laura]
… defacto standards have been established.
17:04:37 [laura]
… what needs to be clicked on? Users needs to know what needs to be interacted with.
17:05:01 [laura]
AC: need a fall back of instuctions?
17:05:31 [laura]
brooks: not just interactive. what does it do and how do I interact with it?
17:05:31 [david-macdonald]
When I (David M) was teaching a mobile class I talked about this SC and the developers and designers wanted to ensure that we don’t discourage developers from making the hit area bigger than the visual affordance. In other words, sometimes they make a button that looks a little smaller than it’s hit area to make the visual design make sense, meanwhile, if the user misses the target a bit, the hit area extends beyond the button a bit so the[CUT]
17:06:18 [laura]
… boils down to purpose and how do I interact with it?
17:06:32 [laura]
… may need to add additional instructions.
17:06:35 [alastairc]
ack jf
17:06:36 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to question the "star rating" example
17:06:45 [JF]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/forms/custom-controls/#a-star-rating
17:06:57 [mbgower]
mbgower has joined #ag
17:07:01 [laura]
jf: concerned with star rating “buttion”
17:07:04 [mbgower]
present+
17:07:23 [mbgower]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:07:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/07-ag-minutes.html mbgower
17:07:27 [laura]
… they are not button.
17:08:23 [laura]
s/they are not button./they are not buttons./
17:08:50 [laura]
… concern that we don’t have source code.
17:09:10 [david-macdonald]
q+
17:09:12 [laura]
… we are mudding the water with this example.
17:09:40 [laura]
ac: for this example don’t think that it the code is relavant.
17:10:10 [laura]
jf: have a concern with this visual example.
17:10:53 [alastairc]
ack ra
17:10:56 [laura]
… assuptions that may or may not be true.
17:11:26 [laura]
Rachael: want to explore the active SC text.
17:11:41 [Detlev]
Is there a link to the example by Abi James ?
17:12:16 [laura]
… doesn’t say state (hover, etc.)
17:12:24 [Detlev]
ta, Alastair
17:12:49 [laura]
AC: needs testing and examples.
17:13:34 [laura]
… gather different examples.
17:13:35 [alastairc]
q?
17:13:38 [alastairc]
ack da
17:14:19 [laura]
dm: the Active SC says, Each active user interface component provides a visual indicator,
17:15:05 [laura]
… mobile class I talked about this SC and the developers and designers wanted to ensure that we don’t discourage developers from making the hit area bigger than the visual affordance.
17:15:47 [laura]
… we saw the share button. That woiuld not pass.
17:16:24 [Detlev]
q+
17:16:25 [laura]
… started out with affordances.
17:17:05 [laura]
ac: not about hit area but purpose.
17:17:13 [alastairc]
ack de
17:17:40 [Fazio]
Agree with you Alastair
17:17:53 [laura]
Detlev: lots of examples that are conventional that don’t need another indicator.
17:17:59 [Fazio]
sorry. Sick. My responses are delayed
17:18:10 [kirkwood]
“understanding” is what is key for COGA
17:18:19 [laura]
… extra outhines could create extra noise.
17:18:32 [AWK]
q+
17:18:37 [laura]
… judgement call. difficult line to draw.
17:18:49 [alastairc]
ack aw
17:18:59 [laura]
… not much chance to successed as written.
17:19:07 [jon_avila]
I would agree that affordance is more important than hit area
17:19:22 [laura]
awk: agree with Detlev.
17:19:48 [laura]
… maybe narrowly focus the SC.
17:20:10 [laura]
… looking at Jennie’s doc.
17:20:41 [laura]
… lots of examples that are difficult.
17:21:02 [laura]
… basing the SC on data.
17:21:42 [david-macdonald]
q+_
17:21:44 [laura]
… not sure how we narrow it while making it encompassing.
17:21:44 [alastairc]
https://alastairc.uk/tests/wcag21-examples/non-text-contrast.html
17:22:11 [laura]
ac: page I may for nontext contrast.
17:22:46 [laura]
s/may for nontext contrast./made for nontext contrast./
17:22:56 [Brooks]
q+
17:23:14 [alastairc]
ack _
17:23:24 [laura]
… would be help to have examples like the one AC made.
17:23:56 [laura]
dm: retailers spend a lot of resources on visual indicators.
17:24:11 [laura]
… leaning towards tha passive SC.
17:24:35 [laura]
s/ tha passive SC./ the passive SC./
17:24:50 [alastairc]
ack br
17:24:58 [laura]
… don’t know of a path forward for tha active sc.
17:25:37 [laura]
brooks: critical to consider the original SC.
17:26:04 [kirkwood]
Shouldn’t a button by definition look like, or react to, it being pressed?
17:26:28 [laura]
… does it impact PWD non-proportionally?
17:27:20 [jon_avila]
too many borders everywhere could also be clutter on the page.
17:27:36 [laura]
ac: feeling it is likely to catch things that are not problems and make unnecessary work.
17:27:57 [laura]
… to move this SC forward need examples.
17:28:15 [jon_avila]
when I created my own Stylus view of a page there were too many borders -- and I actually made them low contrast to show them but to not overpower the page itself
17:29:17 [Fazio]
reducing page clutter is a goal of COGA too
17:29:21 [laura]
ac: for the passive SC, people thing that it may not be used by the target audience.
17:29:34 [Fazio]
because of mental fatigue, stress, etc
17:29:43 [laura]
dm: I could work on a plug in this summer.
17:30:19 [laura]
ac: on the passive one, what are we asking authors to do?
17:30:36 [jon_avila]
To David's point -- it's not so imply with CSS rules and Canvas and other elements. Any passive one would need to say it would need to work with document level style sheet overrides such as what we did with the 1.4.12
17:31:02 [laura]
dm: soft goals. putting it on authors radar.
17:31:31 [laura]
… and dumb things that authors do.
17:31:39 [jon_avila]
I provided example from online office applications where stylus did not show the focus for outlines.
17:31:49 [jon_avila]
Can you provide David's stylus CSS
17:32:04 [alastairc]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WhZAbswvPHs7A3stfqM_ATsaBHPeGbHtARcmaKMck1U/edit#
17:32:34 [laura]
dm: yes give stylus CSS a try.
17:33:02 [AWK]
@David it would be interesting to use those settings in Stylish for a week of regular use of the web and web apps.
17:33:07 [JustineP]
Off topic comment for discussion later...is the intent to keep the SC at the A priority level or is consideration being given to AA?
17:34:07 [laura]
dm: Active SC is very persciptive.
17:34:43 [laura]
ac: need explaes with screenshots that pass/fail.
17:34:56 [laura]
… can anyone help with that?
17:35:35 [laura]
s/need explaes/need examples/
17:36:13 [Brooks]
q+
17:36:19 [laura]
dm: I will keep working on it.
17:36:33 [alastairc]
ack br
17:37:00 [laura]
brooks: somthing similar that I did on friday?
17:37:30 [laura]
AC: yes. have good and bad examples any why they would or not pass.
17:38:02 [laura]
one column of scrrnshots.
17:38:21 [laura]
… leave open
17:38:31 [alastairc]
zakim, take up next item
17:38:31 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "WCAG 2.2 Icon description re-review https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/icon-desc-acceptance/results" taken up [from alastairc]
17:39:25 [laura]
ac: split on if meets the Success Criteria "Shall" requirements.
17:39:59 [alastairc]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HzSsCGelWfz_Z-M7NyUzJOvl1A1kAStyl8epYdpZhoA/edit#heading=h.u26dvsexm72w
17:40:11 [laura]
dm: narrow sc.
17:40:47 [alastairc]
q?
17:41:06 [laura]
…walks the middle ground.
17:41:23 [laura]
… “For icons that act as labels or instructions, a mechanism is available to display a text equivalent visually, on or before the first occurrence of an icon on the page.”
17:41:49 [laura]
… could be accomplished by providing a legend for all the icons before the first occurrence of an icon on the page. It could also be a tooltip on all occurrences of an icon or only on the first occurrence.
17:42:11 [laura]
… gets awy from extra keyboard noise.
17:43:02 [laura]
… have good model being put together.
17:43:26 [laura]
… have examples in there.
17:43:47 [laura]
… minimal effort by developers.
17:44:28 [laura]
… exampel in code pen. Static and active.
17:44:37 [alastairc]
https://codepen.io/Moiety/pen/LaPvWy
17:45:08 [laura]
s/exampel/example/
17:45:19 [mbgower]
q+ to say my comments still seem to stand, to me.
17:45:25 [alastairc]
ack mb
17:45:25 [Zakim]
mbgower, you wanted to say my comments still seem to stand, to me.
17:45:31 [laura]
s/awy from/away from/
17:46:38 [laura]
mg: icon t means something we already have a keyborad requirement.
17:47:08 [Jennie]
q+
17:47:20 [laura]
… not sure it disproportionately afftects PWD
17:47:25 [jon_avila]
I absolutely disagree with Mike. Figuring out what an icon is much more difficult for people with cognitive disabilities. It also impacts users with low vision as you have to gather surrounding info.
17:47:36 [laura]
dm: think that COGA would disagree.
17:48:04 [jon_avila]
I see all sorts of icons that don't have any labels even with mouse.
17:48:22 [Fazio]
Q+
17:48:41 [laura]
ac: most icons have some kind of label.
17:48:49 [kirkwood]
disagree
17:48:50 [alastairc]
ack je
17:48:55 [jon_avila]
I disagree with Mike. I see icons every day that don't have any affordance.